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Post by Football Buddah on Feb 10, 2008 21:47:47 GMT -5
Please use this thread to post any comments regarding modifications to the DEF/ST TEAM position.
The current scoring set-up is as follows:
4 pts for a Defensive or Special Teams TD 1 pt awarded for a safety 2 pts awarded for a turnover 2 pts awarded for a blocked FG 2 pts awarded for a blocked punt 1 pt awarded for a blocked XP
10 pts awarded for a shutout 5 pts awarded for 1-9 pts allowed 2 pts awarded for 10-19 pts allowed 0 pts awarded for 20-29 pts allowed 2 pts deducted for 30-39 pts allowed 5 pts deducted for 40+ pts allowed
10 pts awarded for 0-99 total yds allowed 5 pts awarded for 100-199 total yds allowed 2 pts awarded for 200-299 total yds allowed 0 pts awarded for 300-399 total yds allowed 2 pts deducted for 400-499 total yds allowed 5 pts deduced for 500+ total yds allowed
Please be constructive in your posts regarding any modifications to the above.
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Post by Johns Jackrabbits on Feb 10, 2008 22:35:32 GMT -5
Maybe I'm being too greedy, but why not reward a full 6 points for Defensive TDs and 2 points for Safeties? I don't beleive they happen as often as one would think and when it does, that Defense should be given full credit for them. The most Safeties recorded in any one season was a grand total of 8 (and one team had 4 in that season, 2 teams had 2 each) and that was back in 1927. When you figure that there are between 12 and 16 games each week for 17 weeks, that's a lot of games played and very few Safeties actually recorded, the team should be given full credit for Safeties.
Just a thought...
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Post by Football Buddah on Feb 10, 2008 22:48:03 GMT -5
Great comment John - and yes, I think we all pretty much agreed that safties should be bumped up to 2 pts. No argument here!
An item I'd like to see added to this category is the inclusion of points for return yards (i.e. 1 pt per 20 return yards, or something like that.) That will really help out with the scoring for this position, otherwise it's just a Team DEF position, and not a hybrid of DEF/ST.
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Post by gametime on Feb 10, 2008 22:51:48 GMT -5
1 point per 30 return yards.... don't think you'f want it too high scoring???
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Post by blindsidegm on Feb 10, 2008 22:57:59 GMT -5
I apologize for not attending, first of all. I have spoken to Rob and understand that it was a very constructive couple of hours.
I agree with the 2 point/safety adjustment. I also agree with John that TD's need a bump. I would like to see at least 5 points for those. Sacks should be rewarded. 1 point each. I like the idea of special teams return yards too. Good proposal, Buddah.
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Post by Rebels GM on Feb 11, 2008 7:18:18 GMT -5
Personally, I think anything we can do to enhance the DEF/ST will be a HUGE improvement
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Post by Wonderlickers on Feb 11, 2008 8:16:46 GMT -5
I think kickoff return yardage should be treated differently than punt return yardage, since the average returns for each are different.
Last year in the NFL, the range in averages per kickoff return were 18.4 yds to 27.0 yds (teams usually have 3-5 returns per game).
For punt returns, the averages per return ranged from 4.9 yds to 15.4 yds (teams usually average 1-3 returns per game).
To put these on a level playing field I would say 1 point for every 25 yards on kickoff returns and 1 point for every 10 yards on punt returns.
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Post by fbguru on Feb 11, 2008 8:28:32 GMT -5
I do not think we should give any points for turnovers as that would be given to the IDP.
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Post by gametime on Feb 11, 2008 9:44:21 GMT -5
not a big issue for me, but with IDP I don't think def. td's should be awarded.... I mean if I have Ed Reed and he scores a td I'll get (6 points) but I'm playing against someone and he has the Ravens .. he gets 4 points as well.. really cancels out my advantage of having Reed and HIS play....
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Post by Johns Jackrabbits on Feb 11, 2008 10:55:56 GMT -5
(I posted this shortly before reading the Juggernauts post, so in essence, I agree with his post)
How are we going to differentiate between IDPs and the Team Defense? Will the Team Def get credit for interceptions, fumbles, and sacks as well as the DL, DB, or whoever actually made that play? Or will they just be used for Shutouts and be based on the points per score allowed as listed above? I don't know if it is practical to have BOTH Team Defense and IDPs in use. The Team Def can become Team ST to cover blocked punts/fieldgoals and kick/punt returns for touchdowns. The more I read this, the more I wonder if it makes sense to have both in use. It could become very complicated and frustrating for someone who drops 100 BLBs on a DB only to find out his opponent who snagged the Def that guy plays on for 1 BLB is getting credit for the same INT. We might need to put some more thought into the scoring system for DEF/ST and IDPs (same for TBL, Rob).
Just thinking out loud again...
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Post by Football Buddah on Feb 11, 2008 15:29:23 GMT -5
In my experience of having points for return yards, it really works out as a wash if you did 1 pt per 20 combined yards, for both Kickoff and Punt returns; instead of 1 value for one, and 1 value for the other.
As far as giving credit for sacks or turnovers, that will be applied to the IDP, not the D/ST "team".
I don't personally like the idea of removing the TD value for the D/ST position, since you will now eliminate the return-team's points for returning a punt or a kick-off too. Gotta remember, this is a hybrid position of Defense and Special Teams.
The argument of, Ed Reed's TD vs Ravens D/ST cancels each other out is not a valid argument, because more often than not, your gonna have a QB and the guy you're playing has the WR from the same team, so they will cancel each other out too, but it's just part of the game.
Just my two cents.
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Post by gametime on Feb 11, 2008 15:50:21 GMT -5
I think you keep special teams, but get rid of Defensive TDs.....If I have Ed Reed and my opponent has the Ravens I now have to root he gets pushed out at the one.... so I get more points than my opponent
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Post by Wonderlickers on Feb 11, 2008 17:56:59 GMT -5
Sour grapes, GT! As rare as that occasion is, you can't make that THE argument to get rid of Defensive TD's. You're looking at a 1 in 16 chance of someone having the same defense as your IDP star, plus the rarity of playing that opponent once or twice in 17 contests, plus that happening on the same week in the NFL. If this happens more than once a year, go play the lottery and quit whining.
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Post by Barrister on Feb 11, 2008 18:09:18 GMT -5
The argument of, Ed Reed's TD vs Ravens D/ST cancels each other out is not a valid argument, because more often than not, your gonna have a QB and the guy you're playing has the WR from the same team, so they will cancel each other out too, but it's just part of the game. I agree. Same with QB to RB or TE. Plus if we're leaning toward playing only 4 IDPs per team, we won't be recognizing most of the interceptions, fumbles, & DefTD's that happen in a game. I'm in an IDP league with 16 teams where each team starts 10 IDPs/game, and no one's complained about the "overlap" with DST. I don't think it's a big problem. We might be over-thinking this a bit. Just my thoughts.
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Post by gametime on Feb 11, 2008 18:37:09 GMT -5
Sour grapes, GT! As rare as that occasion is, you can't make that THE argument to get rid of Defensive TD's. You're looking at a 1 in 16 chance of someone having the same defense as your IDP star, plus the rarity of playing that opponent once or twice in 17 contests, plus that happening on the same week in the NFL. If this happens more than once a year, go play the lottery and quit whining. No sour grapes at all d**klichers.. Just think it's an overlap.. Someone last night said we don't start an offensive team to get td's when manning throws one.... I don't care either way... Not whining at all.. I'll keep my thoughts to myself and just let my team do the talking...
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Post by Football Buddah on Feb 11, 2008 19:34:43 GMT -5
I'd prefer that you NOT keep your thoughts to yourself - I like all of the discussion.
I especially liked your re-direct of changing the TD's to only be for Special Teams instead of defense, which will give a little more "preference" to the IDP who actually scores the TD.
But, if you look at the current scoring set up - it's very "defense" weighted, (i.e. total yards, total points, etc) and not enough special teams flavor.
keep the ideas flowing.
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Post by gametime on Feb 11, 2008 20:48:55 GMT -5
i like everything about yur proposal... hell i'd agree to 6 points for a safety since they are so rare... I wouldn't change a thing except I just think it should be special teams TD's only, not defensive... like i said not a big deal, never tried to make it one.. wasn't complaining at all... just thought I'd add to the discussion.....
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Post by Orca on Feb 11, 2008 21:55:06 GMT -5
Maybe I'm being too greedy, but why not reward a full 6 points for Defensive TDs and 2 points for Safeties? I don't beleive they happen as often as one would think and when it does, that Defense should be given full credit for them. The most Safeties recorded in any one season was a grand total of 8 (and one team had 4 in that season, 2 teams had 2 each) and that was back in 1927. When you figure that there are between 12 and 16 games each week for 17 weeks, that's a lot of games played and very few Safeties actually recorded, the team should be given full credit for Safeties. Just a thought... If your Defense scores a TD you're already getting 2 points for the turnover. So actually you do get 6 points.
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Post by Orca on Feb 11, 2008 21:59:36 GMT -5
Sacks should be rewarded. 1 point each. Safety needs to be bumped up to 2. You can't make it a ridiculous amount just because it's rare
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Post by JagerBombs on Feb 11, 2008 22:03:15 GMT -5
My 2 cents. 2 points for safeties and a def TD should be worth 5 points max, as it shouldn't count more than an offensive TD.
As for overlap it happens and becomes part of the strategy on what Def team or IDP to play against an opponent. You have that on the offensive side all the time where you might start a receiver you may normally not play because your opponent has the QB throwing to him. So to me overlap should not be a reason to not do it. Sacks in my opinion should be limited to IDP - but if you want overlap there, I have no problem with it. Maybe give 2 points to IDP and only 1 point to team Def for a sack - just a thought.
I like the idea of return yards, but think 1 point for 25 yards or 30 yards max (other leagues I have played in gave 1 point for 50 yards). This one is a bit more touchy as it does not affect all teams evenly as there are teams with Def teams under contract. Chicago owner would probably really like this rule and want it weighted heavily whereas Steelers owner may not want it at all.
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Post by Johns Jackrabbits on Feb 11, 2008 22:20:54 GMT -5
If your Defense scores a TD you're already getting 2 points for the turnover. So actually you do get 6 points. I did not think of that. I was not looking at the overall sequence that leads to the Defensive TD. Fumble or INT, whatever, you get the points there too...to add up. Which, when you look at it that way, we have to go back to the original plan of 4 points + the 2 for the initial turnover. We can't have Defensive TDs resulting in more than an Offensive TDs.
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Post by Football Buddah on Feb 11, 2008 23:23:47 GMT -5
I will be putting together a scoring plan which will include scoring mock-up's to give you comparisons based on before and after's for each of the 32 NFL D/ST's.
This way, we'll be able to get a feel for what the scoring systems will actually do for this position.
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Post by Argonauts on Feb 12, 2008 9:18:10 GMT -5
I am indifferent on this one. Whatever is decided, I am for. Just want to be in the same conference group as Neil and Tyler. That is my only issue.
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Post by Wonderlickers on Feb 12, 2008 9:47:47 GMT -5
Jerry, just a reminder...Neil is no longer in the league....
GT, I don't want you to keep your ideas to yourself either...just trying to get you going full speed again :-)
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Post by blindsidegm on Feb 12, 2008 17:41:00 GMT -5
Cutting back or eliminating points for defensive TD's makes no sense to me. I understand that we are going to institute IDP's and am in favor of that.
We are talking about compensating teams for eliminating head coaches. I know that when I drafted and signed my defense I did not anticipate the position becoming even less of a factor.
Overlap can be an advantage or a disadvantage in FF. Would have loved to have both BRADY and MOSS last year! Not trying to take a shot here GT-- no disrespect at all. I just have strong feelings that this league still needs to enhance def scoring.
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Post by gametime on Feb 12, 2008 18:38:15 GMT -5
no offense taken at all... I just think Brady and Moss are PLAYERS at skill positions.... They scored they get the TD.. Ed Reed scores, He gets the TD.... Do you have Offensive Teams too.. everytime they score a TD you get 6 points? ... didn't think so... I don't care either way, I just feel there is a big difference in my examples above.... In fantasy you get the points if said player DOES something.... I know few, if any, will ever agree with me.. LOL ... Makes perfect sense in my warped head though..
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Post by Football Buddah on Feb 12, 2008 19:49:43 GMT -5
Gametime, I do agree with you - to an extent. I've never been a fan of the DEF "team" position either, especially since getting into IDP leagues. But, my personal feelings about the position aside, we cannot reduce the level of scoring, simply because of the potential of possible overlap.
I agree with Blindside's comments in that we can't make this position's scoring even less of a factor (than it was in 2007). The intent of this thread is to enhance the scoring, even if we have differing opinions on it's existance.
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Post by gametime on Feb 12, 2008 20:16:37 GMT -5
like I said, don't really care either way....
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Post by Football Buddah on Feb 12, 2008 23:31:11 GMT -5
Ok, the link below is a spreadsheet that I put together with a few "mock-ups" of what the scoring for the DEF/ST position would look like, based on the suggestions provided on the forum. The initial tab indicates what our current scoring set-up looks like. The subsequent tabs have 2 different configurations on each (just to save space). If anybody has any other specific examples that they want to see, just let me know and I'll mock those up too. Hopefully these might help us make a decision sooner than later!! www.tbl2.com/DST_Scoring_Options.xls
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Post by Rebels GM on Feb 13, 2008 7:46:56 GMT -5
Personally, I feel very strongly that we do NOT take away defensive TDs and or anything else away from DEF/ST simply because we implemented IDPs. If that was the case I would have voted NO to IDPs.
Don't get me wrong, I am ALL for IDPs in this league, I just think it is silly to eliminate TDs because a defensive team scored them with the argument that you don't have offensive teams. I have been in a number of leagues that use both DEF/ST and IDPs and BOTH position have value and importance.
In the regular TBL (where defenses can score HUGE weeks) we will not make any changes simply because we are adding IDPs. This just gives GMs another way to build and run their team which is essential in a 16 team league.
We need to make DEF/ST mean more, not less!
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